Los RUSOS bombardean GEORGIA!
- Autor El_Cizañas
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vdky
Tú y yo lo sabíamos
Manu1001 dijo:El retruécano hecho arte. Los rusos bombardean Georgia, y la culpa la tienen... los americanos. Como no.
Manu1oo1
¿¿¿Acaso te extraña???
En fin.. que si unos que si otros que si el cambio climático....
El principal interés está descrito y apuntado. Y se origina en Siberia.
Allí tan fríos, aislados, desterrados y aburridos... como no tenían otra cosa que hacer durante los últimos años, de las entrañas de la tierra usada para el destierro de disidentes, la han convertido en la tierra de prosperidad incipiente de la que el gobierno ruso está sacando unos ingresos que no imaginaba jamás. Relación con esto tiene también el intento de conquista de tierras más norteñas cercanas al polo norte y fuera de sus fronteras, de principio de este año y por el que ha "litigiado" militarmente.
Rusia, con todo y más... se ha convertido a principios de este año en el primer productor de pretróleo del mundo. Su distribución a través de los dos grandes oleductos que corren hasta occidente a través del Caucaso (uno llega hasta incluso el norte de Italia) es vital para su economía. No tener controlada una zona por la que pasa su "dinero"... ahora que se han acostumbrado al pago altísimo por barril, pues supongo que no les haga ninguna gracia.
Otan aparte, creo yo.
LoJaume
Desafinando
Hombre, Azaris, lo cierto es que en 2005 entró en producción el oleoducto que conectaba el petroleo de Azerbaijan con la costa mediterranea turca, vital para los EE.UU. ya que los independizaba del mundo árabe.
Este oleoducto sentó muy mal a los rusos, ya que acabó con su monopolio de oleoductos.
Edito para pegar link: http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/05/26/elmundo/i-02501.htm
Este oleoducto sentó muy mal a los rusos, ya que acabó con su monopolio de oleoductos.
Edito para pegar link: http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/05/26/elmundo/i-02501.htm
Azaris
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LoJaume dijo:
Claro. Pero no llegaba al norte de Italia desde el Caucaso, ¿verdad? No existe ningun oleoducto que llegue a Italia desde Oriente Medio. Precisamente el BTC se hizo para llevar crudo a Ceyhan para embarcarlo en petroleros para las refinerias europeas. A dia de hoy es una formula mas barata.
Me parece que no os habeis leido el link que marque dias atras...
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Manu1001 dijo:Si, si que te había leido, pero no imaginaba el tema como era hasta ver el mapita... Es que, o va por Georgia, o no va por ninguna parte...
Manu1oo1
Pues si, porque en Armenia no estan las cosas muy alla. Y en Iran va a ser que no.
LoJaume
Desafinando
Azaris dijo:
Bueno, hombre, eso es que el vdky habrá confundido el oleoducto por el tubo del gas, pero iba bien encaminado. La idea era que los rusos habían perdido el control del petroleo del mar Caspio, vital para los intereses de los americanos.
Yo también estoy convencido de que los rusos arman maraña en Osetia del Sur para justificar su intervención militar. Lo de menos son los rusos que viven allí. Lo importante es el puto oleoducto.
vdky
Tú y yo lo sabíamos
Hay un artículo en una National Geographic, de estos meses. Si los de la national lo han dibujado y no existe me han engañado. A mí y todos los lectores.
Ahí está el plano de los oleductos y gaseoductos (que corren casi paralelos) que vienen desde Siberia, y sí, llega (el oleoducto) hasta el norte de Italia (y si no llega será por muy pocos kilómetros de la frontera), que es precisamente lo más sorprendente. Si bien no hacen referencia expresa al oleoducto que corre por Georgia, que no era el fin del artículo.
Ahí está el plano de los oleductos y gaseoductos (que corren casi paralelos) que vienen desde Siberia, y sí, llega (el oleoducto) hasta el norte de Italia (y si no llega será por muy pocos kilómetros de la frontera), que es precisamente lo más sorprendente. Si bien no hacen referencia expresa al oleoducto que corre por Georgia, que no era el fin del artículo.
Azaris
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vdky dijo:
Creo que ahora entiendo que es lo que ha pasado, con casi total probabilidad el articulo de NG hablaba del razonable futuro. En todo caso, aunque no tiene mayor importancia para el debate, lo comento como 'culturilla general'.
Aparte del BTC (Baku-Tfbilisi-Ceyhan) comentado como una pieza de interes para entender el puzzle del conflicto georgiano, existe otro oleoducto aun mayor y ya veterano: el Druzhba (amistad, en ruso). Este oleoducto recolecta el crudo procedente de Asia Central y Siberia y lo lleva hacia la Rusia Occidental y los antiguos aliados de la esfera sovietica. Se bifurca en dos ramales Norte y Sur. He recordado que habia leido reseñas sobre un proyecto de ampliacion para meterlo aun mas dentro de Europa y buscando, en efecto, existe la idea de que el ramal Sur que llega hasta Hungria, alcance el Adriatico (en concreto el puerto croata de Omishal) y el Norte, el puerto aleman de Willhelmshaven. Todo el sistema es operado por una empresa rusa.
Por ahora es solo un proyecto. Tambien existe cierta polemica sobre si el Druzhba es, en esencia, un unico oleoducto con continuidad o una red de ellos, dado que en algunos puntos se tiene que hacer un almacenamiento para posteriormente inyectarlo y rebombearlo en otros ductos, a diferencia del BTC que es totalmente punta a punta con logicamente sus estaciones de bombeo. Posiblemente sea mas adecuado considerarlo una red, pero sea como sea lo cierto es que permite prescindir del transporte por petroleros, asegurando un flujo mucho mas eficaz y fiable. Este es el motivo por el que segun donde veamos, ponen al BTC como el 2º o como el mayor oleoducto del mundo.
Saludos.
p.d. de forma colateral al debate y referido a la, por algunos, denunciada pasividad europea respecto a Rusia, cabe recordar que es el principal proveedor energetico de la UE mas aun tras el descenso en la produccion del Mar del Norte (Noruega y Reino Unido). Alemania vive colgada de sus contratos a futuro de gas con Rusia. España misma tiene en Rusia a su principal proveedor de petroleo. Si Moscú hace lo que hace es porque sabe que tiene la sarten bien cogida por el mango, en realidad les necesitamos mas de lo que ellos nos necesitan.
vdky
Tú y yo lo sabíamos
Azaris.
He vuelto a consultar la revista. El oleo hasta Croacia lo dan por hecho. Y lo que si que llega en el mismo mapa hasta Italia (y no menos importante, creo yo...) es el gaseoducto.
He vuelto a consultar la revista. El oleo hasta Croacia lo dan por hecho. Y lo que si que llega en el mismo mapa hasta Italia (y no menos importante, creo yo...) es el gaseoducto.
e Guardian
The Guardian
Russia: we are ready for a new cold war
Relations with the west plummet as Kremlin recognises breakaway states
Russia's relations with the west plunged to their most critical point in a generation yesterday when the Kremlin built on its military rout of Georgia by recognising the breakaway provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states.
Declaring that if his decision meant a new cold war, then so be it, President Dmitri Medvedev signed a decree conferring Russian recognition on Georgia's two secessionist regions. The move flouted UN security council resolutions and dismissed western insistence during the crisis of the past three weeks on respecting Georgia's territorial integrity and international borders.
Last night, Medvedev accused Washington of shipping arms to Georgia under the guise of humanitarian aid.
The Kremlin's unilateral decision to redraw the map of the strategically vital region on the Black Sea surprised and alarmed the west, and raised the stakes in the Caucasus crisis. Moscow challenged Europe and the US to respond, while calculating that western divisions over policy towards Russia would dilute any damage.
Washington condemned the move. Britain called for a European coalition against Russian "aggression". Sweden said Russia had opted for a path of confrontation with the west, and international organisations denounced Medvedev's move as illegitimate and unacceptable.
"We are not afraid of anything, including the prospect of a new cold war," Medvedev said. "Russia is a state which has to ensure its interests along the whole length of its border. This is absolutely clear."
While Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, accused the US, a strong backer of President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia, of gunboat diplomacy by using its airforce and naval vessels to deliver humanitarian aid to Georgia, Medvedev last night went further.
He said Russian forces were not blockading Georgia's Black Sea port of Poti. "There is no blockade. Any ship can get in, American and others are bringing in humanitarian cargoes. And what the Americans call humanitarian cargoes - of course, they are bringing in weapons," he told the BBC.
Last night a source close to the US embassy in Tbilisi said US warships had abandoned a plan to deliver supplies to the port. The USS McFaul had been due to arrive in Poti tomorrow after unloading supplies in the Georgian port of Batumi.
The Nato secretary general, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, said: "Russia's actions in recent weeks call into question Russia's commitment to peace and stability in the Caucasus."
But Moscow oozed confidence that the western response would be mostly bark and little bite, restricted to sharp words and some tolerable diplomatic sanctions. "I don't think we should be afraid of isolation. I don't believe isolation is looming," said Lavrov. "This should not really be a doomsday scenario."
The Kremlin decision, prepared on Monday by the Russian parliament's unanimous vote in favour of independence for South Ossetia and Abkhazia, is widely seen as presaging Russian annexation at least of South Ossetia, a poor, crime-ridden mountain region of only 70,000 people which has little prospect of becoming a viable state.
South Ossetia was the spark that ignited the crisis this month after Saakashvili launched a disastrous attempt to recapture the region and met a Russian invasion which crippled his country.
"Russia's actions are an attempt to militarily annex a sovereign nation ...in direct violation of international law," Saakashvili said last night. "The Russian Federation is seeking to validate the use of violence, direct military aggression, and ethnic cleansing to forcibly change the borders of a neighbouring state."
But senior Russian officials, from Medvedev down, launched a concerted attack on Saakashvili, accusing him of "genocide", of seeking to "exterminate" the people of South Ossetia, and of leaving Russia no alternative.
"This is not an easy choice to make, but it represents the only possibility to save human lives," said Medvedev. "Saakashvili opted for genocide to accomplish his political objectives. By doing so, he himself dashed all the hopes for the peaceful coexistence of Ossetians, Abkhazians and Georgians in a single state."
Lavrov said Russia's decision was "absolutely inevitable, short of losing our dignity as a nation".
Dmitri Rogozin, Russia's ambassador to Nato, likened the international climate to the summer of 1914 before the first world war, and compared the Georgian leader to Gavrilo Princip, the Balkan assassin who shot the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne in Sarajevo.
Russia's decision to recognise the two regions effectively killed off the ceasefire and peace plan negotiated a fortnight ago by France's President Nicolas Sarkozy on behalf of the European Union.
Exasperated by Russia's refusal to observe the terms of the truce, Sarkozy has already called an emergency EU summit for Monday in Brussels. The meeting was supposed to chart a common EU position on Russia, but is as likely to expose Europe's dilemmas and divisions over how to deal with an increasingly assertive Kremlin.
David Miliband, Britain's foreign secretary, said he wanted to forge "the widest possible coalition against Russian aggression in Georgia. We fully support Georgia's independence and territorial integrity, which cannot be changed by decree from Moscow."
But Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, while denouncing the Russian move as "absolutely unacceptable", said she wanted to keep dialogue running with Moscow.
Miliband is due to fly to Kiev today to express British support for the Ukrainian government, which fears it could be next in line for Russian pressure aimed at thwarting its efforts to join Nato.
Miliband is due to meet Ukraine's president, Viktor Yushchenko, and its prime minister, Yulia Tymoshenko, whose government is in a precarious position: seeking membership of Nato and the EU in the face of determined opposition from the country's Russian minority.
Under a lease agreement, Russia's Black Sea fleet is based on Ukraine's Crimean peninsula, increasing Russian sensitivity to Ukraine's westward trajectory and Ukrainian vulnerability to pressure from Moscow.
Miliband will make a speech today to a university audience in Kiev, in which he will laud Ukrainian democracy and warn Russia that its actions will cause long-term harm to its standing on the world stage.
The Guardian
Russia: we are ready for a new cold war
Relations with the west plummet as Kremlin recognises breakaway states
Russia's relations with the west plunged to their most critical point in a generation yesterday when the Kremlin built on its military rout of Georgia by recognising the breakaway provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states.
Declaring that if his decision meant a new cold war, then so be it, President Dmitri Medvedev signed a decree conferring Russian recognition on Georgia's two secessionist regions. The move flouted UN security council resolutions and dismissed western insistence during the crisis of the past three weeks on respecting Georgia's territorial integrity and international borders.
Last night, Medvedev accused Washington of shipping arms to Georgia under the guise of humanitarian aid.
The Kremlin's unilateral decision to redraw the map of the strategically vital region on the Black Sea surprised and alarmed the west, and raised the stakes in the Caucasus crisis. Moscow challenged Europe and the US to respond, while calculating that western divisions over policy towards Russia would dilute any damage.
Washington condemned the move. Britain called for a European coalition against Russian "aggression". Sweden said Russia had opted for a path of confrontation with the west, and international organisations denounced Medvedev's move as illegitimate and unacceptable.
"We are not afraid of anything, including the prospect of a new cold war," Medvedev said. "Russia is a state which has to ensure its interests along the whole length of its border. This is absolutely clear."
While Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, accused the US, a strong backer of President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia, of gunboat diplomacy by using its airforce and naval vessels to deliver humanitarian aid to Georgia, Medvedev last night went further.
He said Russian forces were not blockading Georgia's Black Sea port of Poti. "There is no blockade. Any ship can get in, American and others are bringing in humanitarian cargoes. And what the Americans call humanitarian cargoes - of course, they are bringing in weapons," he told the BBC.
Last night a source close to the US embassy in Tbilisi said US warships had abandoned a plan to deliver supplies to the port. The USS McFaul had been due to arrive in Poti tomorrow after unloading supplies in the Georgian port of Batumi.
The Nato secretary general, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, said: "Russia's actions in recent weeks call into question Russia's commitment to peace and stability in the Caucasus."
But Moscow oozed confidence that the western response would be mostly bark and little bite, restricted to sharp words and some tolerable diplomatic sanctions. "I don't think we should be afraid of isolation. I don't believe isolation is looming," said Lavrov. "This should not really be a doomsday scenario."
The Kremlin decision, prepared on Monday by the Russian parliament's unanimous vote in favour of independence for South Ossetia and Abkhazia, is widely seen as presaging Russian annexation at least of South Ossetia, a poor, crime-ridden mountain region of only 70,000 people which has little prospect of becoming a viable state.
South Ossetia was the spark that ignited the crisis this month after Saakashvili launched a disastrous attempt to recapture the region and met a Russian invasion which crippled his country.
"Russia's actions are an attempt to militarily annex a sovereign nation ...in direct violation of international law," Saakashvili said last night. "The Russian Federation is seeking to validate the use of violence, direct military aggression, and ethnic cleansing to forcibly change the borders of a neighbouring state."
But senior Russian officials, from Medvedev down, launched a concerted attack on Saakashvili, accusing him of "genocide", of seeking to "exterminate" the people of South Ossetia, and of leaving Russia no alternative.
"This is not an easy choice to make, but it represents the only possibility to save human lives," said Medvedev. "Saakashvili opted for genocide to accomplish his political objectives. By doing so, he himself dashed all the hopes for the peaceful coexistence of Ossetians, Abkhazians and Georgians in a single state."
Lavrov said Russia's decision was "absolutely inevitable, short of losing our dignity as a nation".
Dmitri Rogozin, Russia's ambassador to Nato, likened the international climate to the summer of 1914 before the first world war, and compared the Georgian leader to Gavrilo Princip, the Balkan assassin who shot the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne in Sarajevo.
Russia's decision to recognise the two regions effectively killed off the ceasefire and peace plan negotiated a fortnight ago by France's President Nicolas Sarkozy on behalf of the European Union.
Exasperated by Russia's refusal to observe the terms of the truce, Sarkozy has already called an emergency EU summit for Monday in Brussels. The meeting was supposed to chart a common EU position on Russia, but is as likely to expose Europe's dilemmas and divisions over how to deal with an increasingly assertive Kremlin.
David Miliband, Britain's foreign secretary, said he wanted to forge "the widest possible coalition against Russian aggression in Georgia. We fully support Georgia's independence and territorial integrity, which cannot be changed by decree from Moscow."
But Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, while denouncing the Russian move as "absolutely unacceptable", said she wanted to keep dialogue running with Moscow.
Miliband is due to fly to Kiev today to express British support for the Ukrainian government, which fears it could be next in line for Russian pressure aimed at thwarting its efforts to join Nato.
Miliband is due to meet Ukraine's president, Viktor Yushchenko, and its prime minister, Yulia Tymoshenko, whose government is in a precarious position: seeking membership of Nato and the EU in the face of determined opposition from the country's Russian minority.
Under a lease agreement, Russia's Black Sea fleet is based on Ukraine's Crimean peninsula, increasing Russian sensitivity to Ukraine's westward trajectory and Ukrainian vulnerability to pressure from Moscow.
Miliband will make a speech today to a university audience in Kiev, in which he will laud Ukrainian democracy and warn Russia that its actions will cause long-term harm to its standing on the world stage.
El New York Times publica un interesante artículo sobre el representante de Rusia ante la OTAN, Dmitri O. Rogozin, y la situación actual en Georgia. Extraigo unos párrafos muy significativos:
“There are two dates that have changed the world in recent years: Sept. 11, 2001, and Aug. 8, 2008,” Mr. Rogozin said in an interview, explaining that the West has not fully grasped how the Georgia conflict has heightened Russians’ fears about being surrounded by NATO. “They are basically identical in terms of significance.”
“Sept. 11 motivated the United States to behave really differently in the world,” he said. “That is to say, Americans realized that even in their homes, they could not feel safe. They had to protect their interests, outside the boundaries of the U.S. For Russia, it is the same thing.”
“We do not need illusions of partnership,” he (Mr. Medvedev) said Monday in a nationally televised appearance with Mr. Rogozin. “When we are being surrounded by bases on all sides, and a growing number of states are being drawn into the North Atlantic bloc and we are being told, ‘Don’t worry, everything is all right,’ naturally we do not like it.”
Mr. Rogozin added that the West had not understood Russian feelings of resentment over Kosovo, which the West recognized this year as independent from Serbia, an ally of Moscow, despite Russian objections. He said the Kremlin bristled at NATO criticism of the Russian military action as not “proportional” because it was far more restrained than the NATO bombing of Belgrade, Serbia’s capital, in 1999.
“Listen, you in Yugoslavia, you did something normal?” he said. “You have no moral right to say it is not proportional. If we did proportionally in the Caucasus what you did in Serbia, then Tbilisi would have been demolished.” Tbilisi is Georgia’s capital.
“There are two dates that have changed the world in recent years: Sept. 11, 2001, and Aug. 8, 2008,” Mr. Rogozin said in an interview, explaining that the West has not fully grasped how the Georgia conflict has heightened Russians’ fears about being surrounded by NATO. “They are basically identical in terms of significance.”
“Sept. 11 motivated the United States to behave really differently in the world,” he said. “That is to say, Americans realized that even in their homes, they could not feel safe. They had to protect their interests, outside the boundaries of the U.S. For Russia, it is the same thing.”
“We do not need illusions of partnership,” he (Mr. Medvedev) said Monday in a nationally televised appearance with Mr. Rogozin. “When we are being surrounded by bases on all sides, and a growing number of states are being drawn into the North Atlantic bloc and we are being told, ‘Don’t worry, everything is all right,’ naturally we do not like it.”
Mr. Rogozin added that the West had not understood Russian feelings of resentment over Kosovo, which the West recognized this year as independent from Serbia, an ally of Moscow, despite Russian objections. He said the Kremlin bristled at NATO criticism of the Russian military action as not “proportional” because it was far more restrained than the NATO bombing of Belgrade, Serbia’s capital, in 1999.
“Listen, you in Yugoslavia, you did something normal?” he said. “You have no moral right to say it is not proportional. If we did proportionally in the Caucasus what you did in Serbia, then Tbilisi would have been demolished.” Tbilisi is Georgia’s capital.
